Question for the CFII's and other instrument rated pilots - Page 2

Cap'n Dave! · 02-01-2010, 07:46 PM

Lord that martini tonight was good!

HawkerDriver · 02-01-2010, 09:45 PM

Hahah. While I agree with you, it's still good to know. I can see how you don't even think about it anymore, but do you not confirm the hold entry with the FMS ever?

At Colgan we had to do some funky holds that would have been daunting without prior instruction and repeated practice; especially since we had no FMS or GPS.

Cap'n Dave! · 02-02-2010, 08:26 AM

Oh, I look and confirm. I'm still not used to the FMS doing it for me so I always figure it out in my head first and then see what the FMS is doing. The hold entry really only comes down to two choices because in every hold the third choice is obviously wrong. When I was flying hardball planes I'd always draw the hold - if it wasn't depicted - so it was easier to visualize. But I think the point of this thread was about remaining in protected airspaces so, yeah, I'd never just fly a heading upon initial entry. I'd pick a heading to turn to and then start working the radial.

Coffee goes so much better with posting! But not as much fun.

HPNpilot · 02-02-2010, 08:34 AM

What percentage of the time are the holds right on the airway/jet route you are already flying ?

Cap'n Dave! · 02-02-2010, 11:01 AM

99%. That's kind of why this whole holding business gets my ire up. When I got hired at the airlines that's all they wanted to see. Can you enter a holding pattern? And they went berserk with it. During the sim checks they'd give you some weird ass hold to see if you could hold. I never have understood why it is that important. If you're never sure then just turn to the fix and then fly the outbound course. I'm sure you can figure out which way to turn in the ensuing minute. But if you are flying IFR and do have to do a hold then you are already in a protected airspace environment. There really aren't that many holding patterns right next to a mountain or a tower that you could run into. But for those cases you do need to know what is important about entering the hold. But to harp on it year after year after year for all of these decades when I've never heard of a holding pattern entry accident or issue just makes me want to scream WHY? There are so many other things that need more attention and practice.

ZWCRJBOI · 02-03-2010, 10:27 AM

Another point to bring up is that when maneuvering for a hold they are not going to assign anyone else at the same altitude in the hold so if you are paralleling the course rather than flying a heading it shouldn't be an issue. I was always taught to parallel the course. When the FMS is programed for a hold it parallels the course too when a parallel entry is required. I agree with Andrew's statement about terrain. I would always rather stay where it is safe.

HPNpilot · 02-03-2010, 12:35 PM

On a recent day with bad weather and low visibility I could see the airplanes headed for HPN stacked up in holds on the approach waiting for the weather to get above minimums. [on passur.com (delayed radar)]. Several jets were holding in the same place 1000 ft apart vertically. Just seeing it really brought home why being very strict about altitude is so important. Yes, I know its very basic, but seeing the blips for these big planes frequently overlapping at 200 knots made it more real.

PrettyFlyCFI · 02-03-2010, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPNpilot

On a recent day with bad weather and low visibility I could see the airplanes headed for HPN stacked up in holds on the approach waiting for the weather to get above minimums. [on passur.com (delayed radar)]. Several jets were holding in the same place 1000 ft apart vertically. Just seeing it really brought home why being very strict about altitude is so important. Yes, I know its very basic, but seeing the blips for these big planes frequently overlapping at 200 knots made it more real.

I think it's for this same reason that controllers will call traffic for two merging targets separated by altitude even when they are in IMC. I remember overhearing a conversation on the radio that went something like this...

ATC: Airliner 123 descend and maintain 8000.
A123: Out of 12 for 8.
ATC: Airliner 123 traffic is a B-737 10 o'clock, 5 miles, passing left to right at 7000.
A123: Yeah we're IMC so we won't see him.
ATC: I know I just want to make sure you know he's there.

It was sort of a subtle way of saying "If you bust your altitude people might die".

HawkerDriver · 02-03-2010, 05:27 PM

Ya, we get calls for traffic all the time when they know we're IMC. It happens.

Meneer_Gezagvoerder · 02-28-2010, 10:45 AM

Here's how I was taught to do it.
1. Bring up holds page on FMS
2. Bring up desired fix to hold at
3. Select radial, dme, time, etc
4. Press Execute.

Done!

:p

02-01-2010, 07:46 PM	#11
Cap'n Dave! Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Phoenix AZ Posts: 1,277	Lord that martini tonight was good! __________________ Cap'n Dave! -------------------------------------------------------- Now if you'll PLEASE excuse me... I have a show to do.

02-02-2010, 08:26 AM	#13
Cap'n Dave! Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Phoenix AZ Posts: 1,277	Oh, I look and confirm. I'm still not used to the FMS doing it for me so I always figure it out in my head first and then see what the FMS is doing. The hold entry really only comes down to two choices because in every hold the third choice is obviously wrong. When I was flying hardball planes I'd always draw the hold - if it wasn't depicted - so it was easier to visualize. But I think the point of this thread was about remaining in protected airspaces so, yeah, I'd never just fly a heading upon initial entry. I'd pick a heading to turn to and then start working the radial. Coffee goes so much better with posting! But not as much fun. __________________ Cap'n Dave! -------------------------------------------------------- Now if you'll PLEASE excuse me... I have a show to do.

02-02-2010, 11:01 AM	#15
Cap'n Dave! Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Phoenix AZ Posts: 1,277	99%. That's kind of why this whole holding business gets my ire up. When I got hired at the airlines that's all they wanted to see. Can you enter a holding pattern? And they went berserk with it. During the sim checks they'd give you some weird ass hold to see if you could hold. I never have understood why it is that important. If you're never sure then just turn to the fix and then fly the outbound course. I'm sure you can figure out which way to turn in the ensuing minute. But if you are flying IFR and do have to do a hold then you are already in a protected airspace environment. There really aren't that many holding patterns right next to a mountain or a tower that you could run into. But for those cases you do need to know what is important about entering the hold. But to harp on it year after year after year for all of these decades when I've never heard of a holding pattern entry accident or issue just makes me want to scream WHY? There are so many other things that need more attention and practice. __________________ Cap'n Dave! -------------------------------------------------------- Now if you'll PLEASE excuse me... I have a show to do.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

02-01-2010, 09:45 PM	#12
HawkerDriver 1337! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL. Posts: 3,007	Hahah. While I agree with you, it's still good to know. I can see how you don't even think about it anymore, but do you not confirm the hold entry with the FMS ever? At Colgan we had to do some funky holds that would have been daunting without prior instruction and repeated practice; especially since we had no FMS or GPS.

02-02-2010, 08:34 AM	#14
HPNpilot 1337! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Ossining, NY Posts: 1,904	What percentage of the time are the holds right on the airway/jet route you are already flying ?

02-03-2010, 10:27 AM	#16
ZWCRJBOI Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 209	Another point to bring up is that when maneuvering for a hold they are not going to assign anyone else at the same altitude in the hold so if you are paralleling the course rather than flying a heading it shouldn't be an issue. I was always taught to parallel the course. When the FMS is programed for a hold it parallels the course too when a parallel entry is required. I agree with Andrew's statement about terrain. I would always rather stay where it is safe.

02-03-2010, 12:35 PM	#17
HPNpilot 1337! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Ossining, NY Posts: 1,904	On a recent day with bad weather and low visibility I could see the airplanes headed for HPN stacked up in holds on the approach waiting for the weather to get above minimums. [on passur.com (delayed radar)]. Several jets were holding in the same place 1000 ft apart vertically. Just seeing it really brought home why being very strict about altitude is so important. Yes, I know its very basic, but seeing the blips for these big planes frequently overlapping at 200 knots made it more real.

02-03-2010, 05:27 PM	#19
HawkerDriver 1337! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL. Posts: 3,007	Ya, we get calls for traffic all the time when they know we're IMC. It happens.

02-28-2010, 10:45 AM	#20
Meneer_Gezagvoerder Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: N/A Posts: 45	Here's how I was taught to do it. 1. Bring up holds page on FMS 2. Bring up desired fix to hold at 3. Select radial, dme, time, etc 4. Press Execute. Done! :p